Clarinda SH is not a Kirkbride

From Asylum Projects
Viewed 29581 times, With a total of 80 Posts
Jump to: navigation, search

Jump to page 1Prev 165Next 16Last
Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
I have "gone after" one "Kirkbride".

Its hard to argue a building is one thing when the guys who designed it explicitly state it is another. What about it is even kirkbride like aside from the general V layout of the buildings?

Explain to me why Clarinda is a kirkbride but places like Ogdensburg and Norristown are not.
Edited On 2:49:24 PM - Wed, Sep 14th 2011 by Soldat251

Forum Veteran
Wiki Edit 2744
Threads 85
Posts 769
This is my kirkbride. There are many others like it, but this one is mine. My kirkbride is my best friend. It is my life.

http://www.thomas-industriesinc.com/ - Author of Harrisburg State Hospital (Images of America). Owner of City on the Hill & Danville State Hospital websites.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 133
Threads 26
Posts 345
I just find this thread an odd argument all around. Don't get me wrong I understand the points of the discussion and enjoy the opinions, but I could make arguments for all kinds of stuff being or not being a kirk. It just depends on your point of view. A prime example comes form the link for the Mo. Hospital No. 3 that I posted earlier. Not a kirk at all, not even a psych hospital, but in their application for protected status they sure made it out to be. At the core anyone making the argument has to decide what they feel makes it a Kirkbride plan building and what is essential for it to be one. A label is a label, to me it's the building and it's history that matters, so I guess I could care less if it was called a quasi-super-tunnel-conencted-ultra-pavilion-planned-transitional-Kirkbride (btw I am trade marking that name) or the big rock on the hill. I'd enjoy it for what it is either way.

Forum Veteran
Wiki Edit 12549
Threads 148
Posts 1038
Oh heck no you can't trade mark that, as I did that just last night. ^..^ I looked at this as a really strong debate. No one's feelings should've been hurt.

Personally, I think the Kirkbride designation has been bandied about a little too much. (I'm not blaming or pointing my fingers at anyone) But I've seen people just take barely a look and then apply Kirbride plan to it without taking the time to thoroughly investigating the building in question.

I guess it's a lesson learned.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 133
Threads 26
Posts 345
I'm not offended at all. The whole discussion is just beyond me, I dunno, I just want to use the new design name.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 1
Threads 49
Posts 455
Quote:Evilavatar Wed 14th 4:11 pm
I just find this thread an odd argument all around. Don't get me wrong I understand the points of the discussion and enjoy the opinions, but I could make arguments for all kinds of stuff being or not being a kirk. It just depends on your point of view. A prime example comes form the link for the Mo. Hospital No. 3 that I posted earlier. Not a kirk at all, not even a psych hospital, but in their application for protected status they sure made it out to be. At the core anyone making the argument has to decide what they feel makes it a Kirkbride plan building and what is essential for it to be one. A label is a label, to me it's the building and it's history that matters, so I guess I could care less if it was called a quasi-super-tunnel-conencted-ultra-pavilion-planned-transitional-Kirkbride (btw I am trade marking that name) or the big rock on the hill. I'd enjoy it for what it is either way.


What are the "anti-Kirkbride" arguments against Nevada State Hospital?

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 133
Threads 26
Posts 345
Quote:Evilavatar Fri 2nd 8:39 pm
OK folks check this out -

[1]

This isn't a Kirkbride at all, but if you read the description on page 6 of the historic application they sure make it out to be. Building was 4 stories, brick, and X-shaped. The folks made the decision for Infirmary Building, MO. Hospitals No. 3, being a Kirk based design based on the 2 sex divided wings connecting to a central administration building, so I think it all depends on who gives the description and where they get the idea of what a Kirkbride is. There is probably no way to completely classify all of these buildings one way or another. Someone may believe they based their building on a Kirkbride design and they may have some of the elements correct, but if you nit pick the buildings enough I am sure you could argue even some of the Kirkbrides aren't Kirkbrides. The big question you have to ask is what does it need to have to be a true Kirkbride. What bare bones qualities need to exist to classify it one way or another.


Actually check out page 17 and their description of Kirkbride too. Kind of an interesting read.

It wasn't Nevada State I was referencing, it was Infirmary building Missouri Hospital No. 3. I posted this a few days ago, it's not a kirk at all but if you follow the link to their description of it they make it out to be.

Forum Veteran
Wiki Edit 2744
Threads 85
Posts 769
Quote:M-Explorer Wed 14th 4:25 pm
Personally, I think the Kirkbride designation has been bandied about a little too much. (I'm not blaming or pointing my fingers at anyone) But I've seen people just take barely a look and then apply Kirbride plan to it without taking the time to thoroughly investigating the building in question.


I think this is a very good point. Kirkbrides are seen as somewhat of a sacred building to this community. We all love them but there are so few left and the remaining ones are always in constant danger of demolition. So it's no surprise that over the years some buildings may have been labeled a kirkbride a bit hastily and based simply on looks. And if anything has come out of these types of discussions here I think it is that you have to look beyond the appearance of the building because these building plans had so much more to them.

It sucks to have something disproven that you are passionate about. But I don't think it's a huge loss that Clarinda isn't a true blue kirkbride. It was built during a time of transition, when designers were looking for better and more innovative ways to cure the insane. It's still mostly a kirkbride, but also incorporates features that Dr. Kirkbride hadn't thought of in 1854. It's a sign of progress.

I think it's great that our members here are so passionate about this topic and are willing to (for lack of a better word) "argue" to get their points across. We are probably the only real group of people online right now doing this type of research and discussion, especially on this scale. And it's great that we have such dedicated members that want to get everything correct. Which if we really are the only ones doing this, is a pretty big responsibility in my opinion. I mean, I don't think there is a brain trust out there classifying hospital plans. So there isn't anyone elses research out there to fall back on. We have to come up with the best conclusion with the evidence at hand. Even if it's not favorable.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
I agree with all of the above. Kirkbrides are definitely looked upon as sacred in a way and given more value than other hospitals just for that fact. However, buildings like this to me are almost more important because so few of them were built during the brief time when kirks were on their way out and cottages were on their way in, especially Clarinda which is completely original to is design.

I love all hospitals and I love history, I just want to put clear and accurate information within reach of others who care about these places.

I have a friend in Iowa I might visit and try to see these places. Kirkbride or not it would still be my number one to see in the state, architecturally it is a masterpiece.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 1
Threads 49
Posts 455
Evil, I'm still confused. Nevada State Hospital (aka Missouri State Hospital #3) was a Kirkbride. They, like many other state hospital campus added quite a few buildings over the years. Yes there was a Infirmary Building, but it wasn't building #3, the whole hospital was #3, or the third state hospital built in Mo.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 133
Threads 26
Posts 345
WSH, et. al.,

http://www.dnr.mo.gov/shpo/nps-nr/05001330.pdf

If you go to the link with the PDF, the whole thing is for the X shaped infirmary building on the campus of Missouri Hospital Number 3. Check the pictures and see, this is at best a transitional kirkbride building. It lacks all of the normal features of a kirkbrides wings. The only thing the infirmary building shares with a true kirkbride is the central administration. I think the PDF is piggy backing the infirmary with the rest of the hospital complex, which may contain a kirkbride, but the building pictured in the pdf is not the kirkbride building. The building in the pdf isn't even from the right era; It was a WPA project from the 1930's. The authors of the pdf used the kirkbride name and proximity to the other hospitals to mislabel this particular building as a kirkbride. I can make no claim as to any other building on this campus, but this particular building is not a kirkbride.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
Yeah, essentially what I got was they called it a kirkbride as it had a central office section and wings coming off of it.

Very loose interpretation of the Kirkbride plan, lol.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 1
Threads 49
Posts 455
I know this thread is kind of done with but FWIW I did get a call back from the Superintendant's office on Friday. They stated that, "They've been trying to get ahold of a former employee there that was real interested in the history of the building in hopes I could talk to him to clarify things, but have been unable to reach him. However thier official stance was that the original building was built built following the guidlines set by Kirkbride".

This does raise the interesting question, and having never read Kirkbride's actual book I don't have the answer, of whether Kirkbride intended his concept to be followed strictly as a "plan" for asylums or more loosely simply as a "guildeline". Is anyone here privy to the exact wording/phrasing that Kirkbride used?
Edited On 5:48:04 PM - Mon, Sep 26th 2011 by WSH

Forum Veteran
Wiki Edit 12549
Threads 148
Posts 1038
I personally would say that depends on the time in Kirkbride's life. From reading his biography, early on in his career after writing his book, he would have seen it as a set of guidelines to build asylums too. Plus with very little else to follow, everyone did follow his guidelines.

Yet, later on in life as more asylums were built, and also near the end of his life, Kirkbride saw it more as a plan that needed to be strictly adhered to. He was not happy with other asylums experimenting with the design beyond how he saw it. I remember reading other superintendents were chafing under his strictness.

So I guess it depends on the time in Kirkbride's life. I do remember reading that as soon as he passed away, most superintendents discarded his plan in search of something better which soon led to the development of the Cottage Plan model.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
It's also important to note however that in the 1880 editon Kirkbride released revisions of the original plan, realizing its defects.

He helped create St Elizabeth's and that itself was already divergent from his original liner plan being what he called the "improved kirkbride".

The 1880 edition also describes connecting admins and wards with multi story hallways and even had a completely different design for criminal insane hospitals.

As he aged he got more critical as other plans, especially the cottage plan. But he also expanded his plan to what I feel he saw as giving options to suit different needs and concerns providing the best method.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
Also.

Fulton MO can be added to the list of krikbrides with 4 floors.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nevada-MO-Postcard-State-Hospital-Lunatic-Insane-Asylum-/170666579...

Its 10.99, must be because its a kirkbride.

Oh Missouri, you crazy.

Forum Veteran
Wiki Edit 2744
Threads 85
Posts 769

Wiki Edit 0
Wow!!!
Why this is so interesting!!!

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
Quote:Thomasp94 Wed 7th 11:59 am
Two things I just wanted to point out. I my research on PA hospitals I have noticed that sometimes the wording used to describe a floor in books and reports can be misleading because of the changes in language over the years. For instance it took me a little while to understand the floors at the Harrisburg Kirkbride, especially since for the longest time I had no photos. At Harrisburg the floor that is referred to as the basement is actually the first floor and the building actually had no basement, just some dirt tunnels the vents and heat pipes traveled through. The second floor was referred to as the main floor and the main entry was also on this floor. The basement at Harrisburg was indeed designed for patients and/or staff from the very beginning.

The other thing I wanted to point out is the areas of the buildings that join the wings. At Harrisburg and Davnille these are truly 4 floors. I have the blue prints to prove it. So what constitutes a 4 story kirksbride? Does the whole wing have to be 4 stories or not? Looking at the blue prints for Harrisburg it clearly has a 4th floor that was designed for patient use, but not the whole way across.

Harrisburg
zfloorplan_4_flr.jpg

Danville
DSH_EXT_06.jpg

DSH_EXT_23.jpg


Do you think the fourth floor areas were to house attendants and nurses? I think that would probably make the most sense.

Forum Veteran
Wiki Edit 2744
Threads 85
Posts 769
I can not speak for danville because i have no blueprints for that kirk. But the 4th floor wing junctions at Harrisburg were intended for patient use. The large room was a dormitory. I will have to go look at my full size photos to see what the other rooms are. Staff housing at HSH was originally the first floor of the kirk.

Forum Regular
Wiki Edit 2217
Threads 17
Posts 379
Are you sure? It could have been an associated staff dormitory. It just does not make sense to me that they would have patients isolated like that and use the first floor wards for staff, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

Wiki Edit 0
If a Kirkbride must be three floors, what about Saint Elizabeths Hospital which is four floors?

Forum Veteran
Wiki Edit 12549
Threads 148
Posts 1038
There was no specific "has to be three floors" as much as most only needed that. I've seen a few which only had two floors. It was more a question on the planned patient population.


Forum >> Local Boards >> Mid-West Area
Jump to page 1Prev 165Next 16Last


               
         

Post Title

You are posting a



Who's here now Members 0 Guests 0 Bots/Crawler 1


AWC's: 2.5.12 MediaWiki - Stand Alone Forum Extension
Forum theme style by: AWC
Views
Personal tools
Toolbox