Clarinda SH is not a Kirkbride

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FWIW, here is what Ethan had to say:

"There are lots of variations on the basic Kirkbride plan, some very deviant, some not so deviant. None of the characteristics pointed out for backing up the non-Kirkbride claim are very convincing to me. There are plenty of "in-between" type buildings, some of which I consider to "lean Kirkbride-ish"--which I may "bend the rules" a little for and include in my list of Kirkbride--and others which lean toward something else--that I wouldn't "bend the rules" for.

I still consider Clarinda a Kirkbridel. Maybe it's not quite as classic an example as some other buildings, but it's a Kirkbride in my book and not even as deviant as some others that I'm not so sure are truly Kirkbrides."

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Central Indiana State Hospital: The later female Kirk does clearly have 4 stories however the original Male kirkbride to me just looks to have 3 patient stories and windows for the basement story.

Anna State Hospital: Four stories indeed.

Columbus State Hospital: Looks like 3 stories to me with basement windows and an attic.

Jacksonville State Hospital: Same as Central Indiana as they are copies of each other.

Manhattan State Hospital: Again looks like 3 to me with an attic, but with so few and poorly detailed photos who can say for sure. It would make sense to have four with the huge patient population.

St Elizabeths Hospital: Is unique in that it tapers down from 4, to 3, then 2 with wach ward block.

Western State Hospital Hopkinsville: Hard to say, the frontage looks like 3 stories and a basement but the added wards clearly have more then 3 stories.

Weston State Hospital: Looks clearly like 3 stories to me.

Even with a couple four story kirkbrides they are clearly the exception rather than the rule, and they have many other clear and distinguishing Kirkbride features. Four stories is a sensible modification of a kirkbride, as overpopulation was a constant hospital problem. Two stories would just give you relatively minimal construction savings and less beds.

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I feel like Clarinda, despite being extremely deviant from the Kirkbride plan, and the guys who made is having written plainly that it is not a kirkbride, is so familiar to all of us as a Kirkbride that it is hard to accept the idea it is not.

It's not like it will be any less beautiful of a building or that its history will become meaningless if its not a kirkbride.

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The point I was trying to make with my post earlier about Mo. Hospital Number 3 was really to point out that deviation itself shouldn't change the view of the kirks, so much as you should look at what is obviously not a kirkbride. If it was built during the right time period and conforms to the basic rules, i think it should be considered, as kirk bride or kirkbride inspired. Nit picking the Kirkbrides doesn't change what they were, nor the history of the site; the argument over whether they are or aren't is truly something I would consider academic.

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Quote:Soldat251 Tue 6th 4:08 pm
Central Indiana State Hospital: The later female Kirk does clearly have 4 stories however the original Male kirkbride to me just looks to have 3 patient stories and windows for the basement story.

Anna State Hospital: Four stories indeed.

Columbus State Hospital: Looks like 3 stories to me with basement windows and an attic.

Jacksonville State Hospital: Same as Central Indiana as they are copies of each other.

Manhattan State Hospital: Again looks like 3 to me with an attic, but with so few and poorly detailed photos who can say for sure. It would make sense to have four with the huge patient population.

St Elizabeths Hospital: Is unique in that it tapers down from 4, to 3, then 2 with wach ward block.

Western State Hospital Hopkinsville: Hard to say, the frontage looks like 3 stories and a basement but the added wards clearly have more then 3 stories.

Weston State Hospital: Looks clearly like 3 stories to me.

Even with a couple four story kirkbrides they are clearly the exception rather than the rule, and they have many other clear and distinguishing Kirkbride features. Four stories is a sensible modification of a kirkbride, as overpopulation was a constant hospital problem. Two stories would just give you relatively minimal construction savings and less beds.



I just want to comment on the ones discredited as the 4th floor just being an attic. WSH should be able to chime in on this but for example, Weston State Hospital. We were just there back in May and I'm 99% sure that it has 4 floors. The top that looks like a attic from the outside does have patient rooms. As to if they were there from the start, maybe not. But other hospitals, like Greystone (before the fire and 4th floor addition) that have lots of windows which pop out from the roof line (like Weston), I'm willing to get those top floors were patient wards.
http://www.thomas-industriesinc.com/ - Author of Harrisburg State Hospital (Images of America). Owner of City on the Hill & Danville State Hospital websites.

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Quote:Soldat251 Tue 6th 4:12 pm
I feel like Clarinda, despite being extremely deviant from the Kirkbride plan, and the guys who made is having written plainly that it is not a kirkbride, is so familiar to all of us as a Kirkbride that it is hard to accept the idea it is not.

It's not like it will be any less beautiful of a building or that its history will become meaningless if its not a kirkbride.




Agreed.

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I don't think anyone here is nitpicking. I think everyone here actually enjoys discussing and researching such things. I know I do.

That being said I wanted to comment on the 4th floor debate. I'm sure Weston's story is pretty similar to other hospitals as the patient populations grew and times changed. Originally the patient wards were 3 floors. The upper floors of the admin. were apartments for the Dr.'s and the 4th floor/attic was housing for nurses and other employee's. Apparently at the time this was a VERY common set up. As time went by the 4th floor was coverted to patient rooms as the patient population rose, then to complete the cycle, at the end they housed employee offices as well as space devoted exclusively to programs dealing with addiction. I'm sure most Kirkbrides went through a similar transition.

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Quote:WSH Tue 6th 5:15 pm
I don't think anyone here is nitpicking. I think everyone here actually enjoys discussing and researching such things. I know I do.


I agree with this as well. This is why the forums are here.


Thanks for clearing up the 4th floor issue with Weston. I figured it might have happened that way as the hospital got overcrowded.

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Personally, this has been a most interesting and fun conversation to read.

I think what we could do is this: while Ethan calls this a deviant, I'd call it a transitional. But it's the same as potatoes and pataatoes (trying to get the accent on it). It both has characteristics of a Kirkbride, but is also deviating from the strict plan Dr. Kirkbride espoused. So what I think is that why not assign it both? There is no rule that says you can't call it a Kirkbride and also a Transitional because it's both.

It's say with things we classify as transitional, we also add what is predominant. For instance, it may have been based off of a Kirkbride, but they changed things in the design that Dr. Kirkbride may not have approved of. So we would say predominantly it would be a Kirkbride, while also adding a transitional designation to say that the plan was something a little bit different from the original model that wasn't copied by other hospitals. Heck, while we add those two, if we also see that they begun to move to a cottage plan while they were first designing the hospital, then we could also add that designation too.

Basically, in my opinion: if it's very clear that a single designation applies, then we do that. However, if it is unclear because the designers did not hold strictly to one plan, then we assign the predominant designation and a second designation too to designate the difference.

And if in doubt, discuss it like we have been.

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I'm not trying to nitpick or anything, its not that I have some vendetta against Clarinda. I just love discussing and debating hospitals like this. Its a great way to actually get to the bottom of tricky questions like this and you learn so much. Like now I know that a few kirks were designed with four stories and I noticed the taper design of St. Es, I never noticed that and I have been in it!

Whatever we end up deciding for Clarinda I just enjoy these discussions.

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For the record there are some other hospitals I have been thinking may fit more into the transitional plan rather than the kirkbride plan.

I think I can almost ID a type of US Pavilion plan which seemed to be around from the 1880s until the early 1900s when the cottage plan really took over.

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I looked through the Sanborn maps I have, Anna, Danville, Central State Indiana (both Kirks, Columbus & Hopkinsville are marked as 4 stories, Weston is marked as 3 1/2. Jacksonville I don't have a Sanborn for, but it's 4-5 stories. Buffalo has tapered wings that go from 3 1/2 to 2 1/2. I can go through all of them and see what others are.

I still say we should leave Clarinda as a Kirkbride. If anything perhaps put the information about the design under the history of the hospital. I think Ethan did a pretty god job of summing it up though.

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So we are leaving Clarinda as a Kirkbride because Ethan thinks it is, despite the guys who were in charge of designing Clarinda saying it is not?

Also, what constitutes a story to a fire insurance company vs where patients actually stayed?

This picture pretty clearly shows the three ward stories from where the entrance is and up, however the basement level is almost entirely above ground. Would they consider that a story on a fire insurance map, I would assume so.

http://www.asylumprojects.org/index.php?title=File:Jackson37.png
Edited On 5:16:17 AM - Wed, Sep 7th 2011 by Soldat251

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I only gave my 5 cents. Ethan isn't the Mister-Know-it-all, but his opinion is respected. Keep in mind the "guys in charge" were usually politicians talking to other politicians. Hell I could've said Eastern State in Kentucky is a Kirkbride because in 2 annual reports the superintendent and a senator said it is, but even I know it isn't.

Fire insurance companies (Sanborn) didn't differ between staff or patients, only floors that had people living on them. If a floor had a window, odds are someone was living there. Especially in the 1930s-50s. Only about half the ones I have give an actual patient/employee count.

As far as Jacksonville, the windows in the basement floor, it's likely they ended up using it for patients at some point.

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I respect his opinion, however I just think with this case the signs pointing to a hybrid kirkbride, cottage "corridor-pavillion" plan are overwhelming.

I am aware that sometimes the people writing these things can get it wrong. If you look at clarinda stuff now they call it a kirkbride. I know the history of Norristown State hospital on their website is incorrect because they left their male department ledger in an abandoned basement. Politicians are not experts and things are confused with time. However, the passage about it being a hybrid of the two plans comes from the 1897 hospital report, so the hospital had only been open under a decade and construction was still not complete on the female side and submitted with the report of the board of trustees, one of whom was an original member assigned to establish the hospital by the legislature and at the time the hospital still had the Superintendent of Construction who contributed to this report. This report was not written by politicians, but by people who were there to establish the hospital and had a hand in its journey from drawing board to reality.

As for the sanborn thing. I just really did not know how they counted floors. So they count floors with people living on them as a whole floor and then a half floor is what? Floors people occupy maybe at some points or work in but don't live on? I dont know.

I just am trying to reference it with places I know firsthand and sanborns I have to see exactly what it means. Is a basement a half story? I large attic?

And no doubt if they had well lit and spacious attics that they could fit people in I am sure many hospitals got to that point, same with the partially burried cellars. I was just curious what Kirkbrides were really designed with four patient floors from the get go.


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